first presidency; iu hundreds of miles of travel through the Territory you will nowhere hear of a judge making a decision, it is always the bishop; but in cases between Gentiles, or between a Gentile and a Mormon, then this officer acts in the capacity of judge.

Q. In such a case, where a Gentile and a Mormon are concerned, do these judges generally render an impartial decision, or do they decide in favor of their own people? -- A. Well, I will do our bishop -- we call him "our bishop" in accordance with the universal custom -- the credit to say that, where no special interests of his religion are involved, he generally does substantial justice. He knows nothiug of law; but in "nlinary eases, when not instructed by the "council," he will use his best judgment, Had generally do nearly right.

By Mr. Buckley:

Q. Then they are regarded as Mormon ecclesiastical officers, rather than as officers of the civil law? -- A. Always so regarded. By the church they are considered and ad¦Iressed exclusively as bishops; and we Gentiles, when in court before them, while we address the presiding officer as "judge," we feel that he is a bishop. In conversation with a prominent minister recently, I illustrated the condition of affairs in Utah in this way: Suppose that in the .State of Indiana the Methodists, (I referred to the Metho¦lists because iny friend was a preacher of that denomination, and to Indiana because that was his residence, and formerly mine; suppose that in the State of Indiana the Methodists were more numerons than all all other denominations, so numerous as to outnumber the membership of all other denominations together, by thirty to one, that is about the proportion of Mormons to Gentiles in Utah:) suppose that instead •f V*in<; as enlightened and intelligent as they are they were as benighted and ignorant at the masses of the Mormons are, and, like the Mormons, followed blindly the ¦tirtition of their bishop: suppose they should elect the bishop of their church to be iiovernor of the State; and for lieutenant governor the officer in the church nearest tor bishop in rank; for the upper house of the legislature, should elect prominent ]>r«ading elders; for the lower house, other presiding elders of less prominence; for jndgea of the courts, should elect the leading circuit preachers; for county officers, local preachers, &c., down to the lowest township officers. Nobody not a Methodist could be elected to any office of whatever grade; no other ticket would be in the field; the church would direct the people to vote that ticket, and in case of refusal would cut them off as apostates. It will at once lie seen that the whole State would I*entirely in the hands of the Methodists; the laws enacted would be based, not 'ipon the Constitution of the United States, but upon the Methodist discipline; and other denominations -- Baptists. Presbyterians, &c. -- would stand as much chance of obtaining justice as Sampson among the Philistines. Now, instead of Methodists say Mormons, and instead of Indiana say Utah, and you will have some comprehension of liieeouditiou of affairs in that Territory.

By Mr. Cullom:

Q. What proportion of the people of Utah are polygamists? -- A. In regard to that natter I shall be compelled to differ with others who have testified upon the subject. I am unite confident that not over one-sixth of the adult male population of Utah are polygamists. Of course more women are polygamists, practically, than men. Some urge estimates are made as to the number of polygamists; but as the numbers of the •*«s are equal in Utah, it is manifestly impossible for everybody to have more than one wife.

Q. How many of those not practically polygamists me in sympathy with it? -- A. I 'niak about one-half the entire population.

Q. What is the entire population of the Territory? -- A. I have made a careful estimate; of the towns as far south as Fillmore, and up the Sevier River, and have com|«ial my own estimates with the statements of travelers further south, and I think the population is from ninety to one hundred thousand. I do not, believe it would reach zz hundred thousand.

Q. What proportion of these are Gentiles? -- A. When 1 left Utah there were very nearly three thousand. In Salt Lake City there were, last winter, eight hundred resilient Gentiles. I made up that list from the subscription list of the Daily Keener, from the roll of the Masonic and Odd Fellow lodges, from the roll of the Hebrew Benevolent Society, from the list of communicants of the Gentile church, Episcopal,) from the list of the Gentile Sunday schools and day schools, and similar iwmis; besides being personally acquainted with nearly or quite every one of them.

Q. It has been argued by some newspapers, and by others, that any law which '"ight he passed by Congress, the. effect of which should be the destruction or prevention of the system of polygamy, would produce great distress, particularly among the women. What do you think in regard to that matter? -- A. No such statement tan ever made by any one acquainted with the condition of affairs in Utah, I think, loany one who had ever lived there such a question would be simply surprising. The women support themselves now, aud in many cases support their husbands too. Certainly a law releasing them from their husbands could not make their conditio any worse. A large majority -- I have no hesitation in saying five-sixths -- of thwoDicD in polygamy support themselves by their own labor. I could mention tin names of leading and well-known Mormons, whose wives keep millinery shops, boaniing houses, &c, or do weaving and spinning for a living. Country bishops generally have three wives, by which means a very convenient and economical division of laW is secured. One acts as housekeeper, the second is gardener, while the third doesthr spinning, weaving, and washing for the family.

By Mr. Duval:

Q. If polygamy were let alone, and permitted to continue without restraining influences, would it gradually die out, or would it become worse from year to year? -- A. It would doubtless become constantly worse, if ''without restraining influences;'- but restraining influences are at work. The most hopeful feature of the whole affair, in my judgment, is in the fact that nearly all the young gills, those just growing up into womanhood, are opposed to polygamy. And I believe that even if the United States government should do nothing specifically against polygamy, but simply give a sort of sanction to this and other disintegrating forces, the question of polygamy would by and by settle itself, and the rising generation slough it off in the course of the next twenty"! thirty years.

By Mr. Bucklky:

Q. It is alleged, and with some degree of force, that polygamy will cure itself, il simply let alone; that with the opening up of railroads, and the settling of the country around them, those people will be brought into contract with American institutionand polygamy and its kindred abominations gradually fade away before the advancement of a higher civilization. What is your opinion upon that point? A. It never would, so long as such absolute power is left in the hands of the Mormon hierarchy They could almost completely nullify all these outside influences, and perpetuate j»olvg amy indefinitely. But if you can in any way break the power of the Mormon hierarchy, even though you should decide to make no crusade against polygamy itself, I think these disintegrating influences would be sufficient to destroy it in twenty or thirty years.

By Mr. Duval:

Q. To what, extent is Monnouism increasing by the accession of new converts? -- A. Not nearly to so great an extent as they claim. The additions for five years past have numbered from one to three thousand a year -- men, women, and children. To balance that, however, there hns been considerable apostacy; so the increase has not been very great, after all.

By Mr. Cullom:

Q. Is the increase of the population by births larger, in proportion to the popnlation. than it is in the States? -- A. No, sir; I think not so large in proportion to the number of women. I know the medico-theologians among the Mormons claim that population increases much faster under their system, but from the testimony of unbiased physicians, and of old women, who are pretty apt to know the fact in relation to such matters, I think the contrary. You see. the question is not whether one man will ha" more children with five wives, but whether each of those wives has more children than she wonld with a husband of her own. The bishop of Provost has five wives, and not a single child. As a general thing, I do not think that the wives, in households where polygamy is practiced, average as many children as the ordinary women of onropieultural communities. To this, however. Heber C. Kimball seemed to be an exception, and Brigham Young likewise. Kimball had twenty-two wives in all; at his death he left eighteen widows, eleven of whom still reside in his block -- he had in all forty-one children. Yet it is not unreasonable to suppose that of those twenty-tw" wives, one-half, at least, should be child-bearing women -- for whom forty-one children would be a small allowance. When Heber Kimball was living, it used to be noted aa curious fact that there were in Salt Lake City five men with an aggregate of seventy wives and one hundred and fifty children. The bishop of the ward in which I liveil has thirty children living, and twenty dead. Another bishop, with six or eight wives has seventeen children buried in a row, and the longest grave is not over four feet

Q. What is the population of Salt Lake City? -- A. I should say a little less than eighteen thousand.

Q. How many of the ninety or one hundred thousand Mormons -- that, I believe, is what you estimate the population of Utah to be -- are dependent for their support entirely upon the labor of their hands, and not upon the revenues of the church, or upon their connection with the heads of the church? -- A. Nearly all; the remainder woiil'l constitute so small a proportion as not to be appreciable in a politico-economical p»i>" of view. The farms in Ulah are generally small, particularly in the northern settleuiento—say froui five to twenty acres; the latter is regarded as quite a. large farm. Artificial irrigation is necessary in that country, and, with their awkward system of irrigation, twenty acres is about as much as one man can attend to properly. As a result of this system of small farms, the Mormons naturally settle in communities. The whole Territory is divided, into wards; and the center of each settlement is so thick xi almost to amount to a village. Each of the wards has an incorporated government, with a mayor and other city officers; and has also an ecclesiastical organization, whose authority extends over all the adjacent country. The people farm these small patches ¦if which I have spoken, and live upon the proceeds, besides paying one-tenth to the church. The great majority have but one wife. Living in that country is tolerably cheap. The region is peculiarly adapted to grazing. Utah can turn out the finest beef cattle in the world. Wheat, rye, bailey, pumpkins, carrots, and turnips llourisb particularly well; but for Indian corn the climate is a little too cool. Imphee cane grows luxuriantly where there is no alkali in the soil, and is largely cultivated for the molasses obtained from it.

Q. You sneak of breaking the political power of polygamy. This bill, which the committee have agreed to recommend to the House, disfranchises -- cuts off' from the ii;;lit to hold office, or to vote, or to pre-empt land -- all persons actually living in and iiractking polygamy. Would you, or not, regard that as being an effective means of breaking the political power of Mormonism? -- A. Assuredly, I should. The most important things to be done are the removal of power from the probate courts, the disfranchisement of those guilty of polygamy, and the giving the United States marshal the power to enforce the decrees of the district court. This would completely destroy the political power of the Mormon hierarchy everywhere north of Salt Lake City, and I ihiuk in Salt Lake City, too. But when yon pass the canon of the Jordan, from there smth. through what is known as the "black country," it would be more difficult to irn these measures into effect.

By Mr. Takfe:

Q. In Utah, do as many children live and grow to adult age as in communities iihere polygamy does not prevail? A. No, evidently not; not even according to their own statistics. But I would not be understood as attributing this entirely to polygamy. It is largely the result of their fanaticism, or "reliauce-on-faith doctoring;" their general prejudice against the medical profession, and practice of resorting to their priests instead, to be cured by the laying on of hands. Neither knowing nor practicing any physiological or hygienic laws, diseases and deaths are very frequent, especially among children. Q. Have you ever heard Brigham Young preach? A. I have, frequently, Q. Did yon ever hear him refer to the government of the United States, or to any attempt on its part to enforce the law of 1862? A. I do not think I ever heard him refer to that law specifically. I have frequently heard him refer to the government of 'he United States; I heard him do some tall swearing, once, in that connection; he •an giving a review of the judges that had been sent out to Utah, he began at Judge Btntnua, appointed by President Fillmore in 1850, and cursed them regularly and in 'iroerdown to the present time. Q. Then there is no concealment on their part that they consider the law of 1862 a 'lead letter, and that they have no disposition nor intention to obey it? -- A. None whatever; on the contrary, they openly put it at defiance; they say it is unconstitutional; fbejoytke Constitution guarantees to them a local form of government; whatever '^hard on them they call unconstitutional; they regard as law whatever is expedient, and denounce as illegal whatever they do not choose to obey. The authority of the church is paramount: that they openly avow.

By Mr. BtcKLEY:

Q. You speak of the necessity of breaking the political power of the Mormon leaders: hut can we strike at that political power without laying ourselves open to the charge of ("•rewriting the people for their religious faith? A. With the more fanatical portion -- "lie-half the people, and perhaps more -- you could not; they would regard any action «illegal which should interfere with polygamy. Do not understand me as claiming that the good effects of this bill would be made manifest immediately. I have no doubt there would be a year or two of general confusion and uncertainty. lint what I »y is, uo class of community need suffer. So far as suffering is concerned, there rooki not hot be, it seems to me less suffering than now; the women who would cease '"',* regarded as wives under tin- operations of the law would only have to support ;hcni»flvea and their children, and that they have, to do now; the tithing system jTonld be abolished; the people would bo permitted to trade wherever they chose, "lying wherever they could buy cheapest, and selling wherever they could sell to the '**tadvantage. The polygamists generally, I doubt not, would shortly receive a revelation commanding them to seek some new home, and would leave in large numbers, •"id their places be supplied with Gentiles.

Q. Where would the Mormons go to? -- A. To Arizona: it may not be generally known, but it ts a fact, that the Mormons now own an entire county in Arizona.

Q. If they should determine to leave Utah on account of the action of the United States government, would they stop again inside of the United States? -- A. The; would for some years; they could not leave immediately. It is noticeable that tinMormons have been constantly establishing their outposts farther and farther south. until they now reach nearly to Sonera, in Northern Mexico. And these Mormon settlements extend in a band, not over fifty miles wide anywhere, and in most places nut over ten miles wide; the whole constituting a sort of an arc for five hundred miles Commenicing at Malade City, in Southern Idaho, we pass through Oneida, Bear Lake Valley, Cache Valley, Bear River Valley, Salt Lake Valley -- in which I include the farms along the eastern shore of Salt Lake -- Jordan Valley, forty miles long, extending to Provo, and the Utah Lake district. There a new point of departure might be taken: that brings us to Mount Nebo, sixty or seventy miles from Salt Lake City, and acrvr^ the big divide; we then pass Payson, Pondtown, Le Van, Chicken Creek, and Salt Creek, to Fillmore, the old capital. Here again we might take a new point of departure; Sevier River runs through Southeastern Utah, and has some small settlement along its course; from Fillmore, south, you pass St. George, Washington, Hannonv, Cedar City, Santa Clara, and Mountain Meadows, which brings you to the Great Desert; crossing the desert you have, a little settlement on the Rio Virgin, and another on the Big Muddy -- which are really in Southeastern Nevada. Below these thereat' a few detached settlements, extending into Arizona. The whole constitutes a beltot settlements of not less than five hundred and fifty miles in length.

By Mr. Cullom:

Q. The bill before the committee contains a section providing for a system of proceedings in court for the condemnation and sale of. property belonging to Mormons oh" shall be convicted of polygamy and sent to the penitentiary, or shall move away, leaving their wives and children without support -- the property to be sold for the support of the women and children. Is it your opinion that there would be really any necessity for that sort of a provision in the bill? -- A. I do not know that I am quite clear on that point. It is doubtful whether occasion would often arise for the enforcement ot that provision of the bill. To convey to the committee my ideas on this subject, it would be necessary to preface them with a lengthy explanation of the manner in which these family matters are managed in Utah. Unless the husband is a hotel-keeper, as I have before! described, the wives generally live in different places, each on a little patch of ground, a few acres; from this she obtains her own living: but it is not here; no means for a woman's support are provided, whether the husband be living or dead; tinright of dower, &c, arc things unknown to Mormon law.

By Mr. Tavfe:

Q. Suppose a woman marries, who before her marriage had property in her own right; do I understand that she loses the right to that property when she marries! -- A. I cannot give you the exact wording of the law upon that point. The practice is for the church authorities to take the matter in hand and settle it: and when a man dies, they divide the property up, giving so much to each widow. I do not understand thai any provision is made for any legal proceedings in reference to the case. A case of Unkind has arisen with our new assessor. Heber Kimball, on his death, left something to each of his children; the assessor claimed the right to tax as legacies all the Inquests, except those to the children of the first wife: this of course, the church resisted, and the question has been referred to the revenue department; the decision of tin department in regard to the matter, I have not learned.

Q. What do you think as to the possibility of enforcing the provisions of a law likethat proposed by the committee." Do you anticipate a resistance which would result in bloodshed, or a general war? -- A. I find that the idea prevails largely in the States, at least I have seen it set forth in the editorials of leading newspapers, that any attempt to enforce such a law would precipitate a furious anil desolating war in Utah. One paper says it would require a standing army of forty thousaud soldiers to enforce it. Now it is barely possible that by sending out three hundred men and letting the Mormons destroy them, and follow them up by three hundred more and letting them'" destroyed, and so on, you might manage to aggravate it disturbance into something like military proportions. But let the government take the initiative and send out two thousand men, placing, say six hundred at Camp Douglas, and three or four hundred each at each place where a district court is held, and two or three hundred at Provo, Ogden, and Brigham City, and I would pledge my life almost that there never would be a particle of trouble.

Q. What do you consider the actual military strength of the Mormons? -- A. If Brigham Young were given full and fair warning, say six or eight weeks' time, he might" be able to muster eight thousand men capable of holding a musket. I have seen tin tabernacle as full as it could hold, and it will hold about ten thousand people, but I have never seen the time when a regiment of able-bodied men could be got out of it. (if the eight thousand men whom I have mentioned, the Americans and most of the foreigners living in and near Salt Lake City, have some skill in tho use of arms; but u» for the rest, a heterogeneous assemblage of Swedes, Danes, Norwegians, Welsh,&.C., the more of them there were together, the easier they could be whipped. Give me "iir old regiments, the Fourteenth and Thirty-first Indiana, and I will take the contract to whip all the men Brigham Young can bring into the field. A. O, yes, sir. There is n Gentile church in Salt Lake City, and lias been for many yean. At first it was a Congregational church, but now it is Episcopalian. They used to preach very vigorously against polygamy. The Mormons often invite Gentile preachers to preach in their tabernacle.

Q. Utah has now population enough to entitle her to admission as a State. Congress must act in the matter, and that soon. We must either admit her, or insist that she has some radical wrong; and if we acknowledge the latter, consistency demands that we should eradicate it. Under these circumstances, would you admit Utah as a State, without first securing the destruction of polygamy? -- A. I believe that polygamy would perish of itself, in a short time, if let alone.

Q. But polygamy is now in full sway there; and if Utah should now demand admission as a State, would yon admit her, or first endeavor to destroy polygamy? -- A. I should Is? in favor of admitting her. I believe that polygamy would be sooner eradirated by kind treatment than by any course of legislation which they can claim is oppressive.

By Mr. Cullom:

Q. Do you think that any action on the part of the government which should result in patting a stop to polygamy could rightfully bo regarded as oppressive, when we have had a law, declaring polygamy a crime, upon our statute-books for the last eight years? -- A. I do not. think the law against polygamy is wrong.

Q. But to execute that law would be wrong -- is that it? -- A. I think it would be very difficult to frame any legislation to affect that matter, without being oppressive. Such a law would be in the position of the fugitive slave law in the northern States before the war. Everybody considered the law to be wrong, so nobody would obey it, and disobedience to it could not be punished. As Edmund Burke said, "It is difficult to indict a whole community."

Q. So yon think that any action on our part looking to the enforcement of that law would be wrong? -- A. I do not think it would be wrong, if there were any way of accomplishing it without violating the right of trial by jury.

Q. But if it could be accomplished, you think it would be right? -- A. Yes, sir; as I
Q. But if it could not bo done in that way, do you think it would be wrong to break it up by force? -- A. I certainly think it would be bad policy; it would result in enormous expense, in a great deal of ill-feeling if not destruction of life, and not accomplish the result any quicker nor so quickly as a more considerate course. I do not sayit would be wrong, but I certainly think it would be injudicious. The best thing to be done with that system is to let it alone, and it will die out of itself.

Q. So it was said twenty-five years ago, and yet it is now stronger than ever. -- A. But tliuse twenty-five years the Mormons have remained completely isolated from the rest, of mankind; now," the railroad has brought them into contact with the civilized world outside, aud new agencies will be brought to operate upon them. This very schism is the result of completing the railroad through that Territory.

By Mr. Pomeroy:

Q. I understood you to say that on account of this co-operative movement the Gentiles were moving out? -- A. Well, perhaps a few, but many more are being brought in; not so many into Salt Lake City as into the towns along the line of the railroad, but they will have all their influence in changing the tone of public sentiment in the Territory.

By Mr. Ward:

Q. If Utah should be admitted as a State, this Mormon element would have supreme control, so far as numbers are concerned, would they not? -- A. Certainly.

Q. Then they could make such laws as they chose to protect their own "domestic, iwitntious," could they not? -- A. I suppose so.